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Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:50 am
by wowraider
Existing ranking system we all know as WowProgress, got some principal flaws, and I want to fix the situation, by offering you another view on progressing rankings. System I wrote, possibly known to some users because of pulls monitor I’ve added before it has been cloned on WP, gathering armory data and building guild rankings lists, but pretty different way than WP does.

So what the differences and system mechanic:

  1. All information from analyzed regions: US, EU, TW and KR adjusted in time, to make regions even with content release moment.
  2. Rankings and scores for 10 and 25 men formats calculated separately. United ladder being built by scores comparistions, because our score system shows guild progression efforts.
  3. Every tier has cap of score points available – 100,000. These score points divided between bosses, both normal and heroic. To calculate the score, system calculates minimal intervals from content release (real release, boss should be available for tries) to first kill of every boss worldwide. Than it sums these intervals and getting pool of progressing time for tier. Then, score pool divided proportional of progressing time of every boss. Example: fastest kill of Stone Guard normal took 1.5 hour. And total progressing time for all bosses is 50 hours. Than Stone Guard score will be calculated as: 100,000/50*1.5 = 3,000 and so on for all bosses
  4. First killer of the boss getting max score. All other guilds, killed boss after that time, getting lower score. System calculates time from FK to the end of content (next raid patch release), say Trest, and time between first kill and guild kill time, say Tdiff. Than guild score for the boss counted as BossScore * (Trest- Tdiff)/Trest. With such formula, at the end of content patch, you getting almost 0. And getting nothing after next content been released.
  5. Total tier-format score for the guild counted as sum of all bosses score in current format and tier.
  6. If guild has killed normal and heroic versions of the boss, it's getting max available score for normal version (this makes normal kills irrelevant for top guils)
  7. Such way of score counting allows to compare guild progress between tiers. Also, it’s possible to calculate character’s individual Progress Score for every tier.
  8. System is 100% accurate with detecting 10/25 ppl kils for characters.
  9. Guild’s achievement counted if there are 6+ men for 10-men achievement, and 13+ men for 25-men achievement. If enough people leaves guild, it may lose achievement on boss kill.
  10. Tier progress shown not by dungeons, but by total encounters number. In case of T14 there are 16 bosses in two modes, so tier progress is X/32.
  11. There are four ranking tables: worldwide, region (US, EU, KR, TW), sub-region (EU-RU, etc.) and realm.
  12. Data being updated automatically in few days, but request can be submitted manually from the guild’s page.
  13. In 5.1, Korean guilds will be excluded from world rankings because of separated 10/25 raid lockouts.
  14. Comfy progress details and pull data are also available, even for pulls before kill.

Here you may see the rankings for content: http://wowraider.net/progress/index.cdiml?locale=en
Your feedbacks are welcome.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:56 am
by Affinity
why must it include normals :(

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:06 am
by Zoomkin
It looks a lot more accurate and something people can agree on then, some guy who owns wow progress and changes the points every few weeks.

I like how it takes into account for the other realms getting patches at different dates.

Only thing I see is that normal modes mean nothing in progression because of how people look at them for gear funneling.

Another thing, which I don't have an answer to, is some bosses later in the instance are easier than ones before it but, they will be worth more in your system because of the time difference. If a guild is stuck on one of those earlier bosses that are harder they will progressively lose more and more points on those easy bosses that isn't even with it's difficulty.

Example Vizier to garalon. Garalon ends up being worth more points but a guild stuck on vizier will lose more points than they should from garalon. Just an insight.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:39 am
by Sinnermighty
Like I mentioned in Skype, should add the Oceanic subregion for US Scope :)

Another thing I noticed was it does seem "slow" to update kills, for example after we killed Protectors I put in an armory update on the site but it still didnt register the kill but WP did. Another example is Exodus killing Tsulong 3 hours ago (WP updated) and not recorded on WoWRaider yet. It might be on how you track the kills but if there is a more quicker way to do updates and then do the more thorough check afterwards that might help.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:53 pm
by Riggnaros
Take normal modes out of the equation. No top guild cares anything about killing them fast, nor will they ever.

Really like the site though. Nice work!

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:12 am
by wowraider
Affinity wrote:why must it include normals :(

Well there are "other" people :D Who can't beat all content in one week. And sometimes can't beat all content before next being released. And i'd like to make universal score system.

Howewer, there is a lot of criticism about normals from top ranked guilds because of logistic delays on normals for loot and so on. So thinking about it and all suggestions are welcome.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:20 am
by wowraider
Zoomkin wrote:Only thing I see is that normal modes mean nothing in progression because of how people look at them for gear funneling.

Working on it. See above.

Zoomkin wrote:Another thing, which I don't have an answer to, is some bosses later in the instance are easier than ones before it but, they will be worth more in your system because of the time difference. If a guild is stuck on one of those earlier bosses that are harder they will progressively lose more and more points on those easy bosses that isn't even with it's difficulty.

Example Vizier to garalon. Garalon ends up being worth more points but a guild stuck on vizier will lose more points than they should from garalon. Just an insight.

Score system solves this problem i belive. You killing vizier in first week and getting big score because of difficulty. Than you killing next 2 crappy bosses (in comparision ofc). Those, who skipped vizier this week and kill him next weeek, will get less score for kill. You are getting less score for garalon, but. Difference between Vizier score this week and next will be much greater than difference between garalon score now and tomorrow. Also, fast kill of garalon by skippers will reduce it weight and makes him much less meaningful in total score.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:24 am
by wowraider
Sinnermighty wrote:Like I mentioned in Skype, should add the Oceanic subregion for US Scope :)

Are you sure it's necessary? Regions are split by time difference and subregions by language. You've said that there is no difference betweeen Oceanic and US realms. So what the point?

Sinnermighty wrote:
Another thing I noticed was it does seem "slow" to update kills, for example after we killed Protectors I put in an armory update on the site but it still didnt register the kill but WP did. Another example is Exodus killing Tsulong 3 hours ago (WP updated) and not recorded on WoWRaider yet. It might be on how you track the kills but if there is a more quicker way to do updates and then do the more thorough check afterwards that might help.

This is real problem. You see, i'm using different data than WP does for kills detection. And this data seems updates a bit slower than just achievements. I belive, it's synced after character logging only. But it's blizzard side and i can't do anything about it.

Thought about using kind of pre-detection, the same way as WP does, but still waiting explanations from blizzard about data syncronisation difference.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:25 am
by wowraider
Riggnaros wrote:Take normal modes out of the equation. No top guild cares anything about killing them fast, nor will they ever.

Really like the site though. Nice work!

Thanks. Thinking about damned normals :D

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:27 am
by wowraider
Btw, added nice feature yesterday. You may upload your logs from first kills and link them to your guild milestones. Log became undeletable and available in guild progress section.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:34 am
by Sinnermighty
The split for Oceanic and US is just the same as Latin Servers being replaced, and EU DE/FR etc. Just to seperate the Oceanic realms so the Oceanic guilds could compare against themselves as well, it's not that big of a deal :P

Also think it was mentioned on Method's forums but switching to a .com domain would help it become much more mainstream than a .ru url.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:36 am
by wowraider
Okay, seems i've found out the way of score calculation without cutting off normals and making them irrelevant for tops:

1) If you've killed boss only in normal mode, you are getting score as usual.
2) After you killing boss in heroic, you are getting heroic score as usual plus maximal score available for normal kill. (Normal kill score became irrelevant)

With this way top guilds will have competition only in heroics, softcore guilds will have competition only in normal and semi-hardcore will have mixed.
Also total amount of score obtainable stay the same.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:37 am
by wowraider
Sinnermighty wrote:The split for Oceanic and US is just the same as Latin Servers being replaced, and EU DE/FR etc. Just to seperate the Oceanic realms so the Oceanic guilds could compare against themselves as well, it's not that big of a deal :P

Also think it was mentioned on Method's forums but switching to a .com domain would help it become much more mainstream than a .ru url.

Will do with oceanic realms and wowraider.net is on the way. .com was not free.

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:57 am
by Sinnermighty
Awesome :)

Re: Alternative PoV on guild progressing rankings

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:19 am
by wowraider
1) Regional offsets for ToES heroic updated.
2) Oceanic realms separated from US region.
3) Score calculating algorithm updated to described before and scores re-calculated.